WildFly Community Space Replacement

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WildFly Community Space Replacement

James Perkins
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Another option could be better as without knowing the structure of how wildfly.org is a bit of ask for the community to write an article/blog post.

Any other options or suggestions on any of these points are welcome.


Not required but I would also like to open for discussion moving the wildfly-dev mailing list to Google Groups. What are others opinions on this? It seems to get fairly low traffic as of now.



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JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

Jaikiran Pai-2

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there. Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.

-Jaikiran


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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

Darran Lofthouse
In reply to this post by James Perkins
I don't think we really need to separate wiki from articles, when we moved to the jboss.org infrastructure there was no real wiki solution so the closest you had was articles which some are created once similar to a blog but others were created to try and keep up to date so I think +1 for a wiki to hold the immediately updatable content.

One issue with stackoverflow is everything must be in the format of a question with answers in the format of an answer, added to that when you ask a question you get more questions second guessing why you are asking the question rather than providing an answer!  It seems if we exclusively use stackoverflow we don't have a suitable place for general discussion unless you force them to be real time in Zulip or allow more general discussion on the dev list.  You mention moving developer discussion to google groups, why not allow the same for user discussion?

I think it would be nice in general if we could find ways to encourage more general discussion in the community spaces so it is not just a place to visit with a question.

Presently blogs published to wildfly.org don't have an option for comments or ongoing discussion, having a user space could allow for a discussion to be started for a blog to allow ongoing collaboration.

Regards,
Darran Lofthouse.


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:27 PM James Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Another option could be better as without knowing the structure of how wildfly.org is a bit of ask for the community to write an article/blog post.

Any other options or suggestions on any of these points are welcome.


Not required but I would also like to open for discussion moving the wildfly-dev mailing list to Google Groups. What are others opinions on this? It seems to get fairly low traffic as of now.



--
James R. Perkins
JBoss by Red Hat
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[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

Brian Stansberry
In reply to this post by Jaikiran Pai-2


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:17 PM Jaikiran Pai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there.

Since I started doing these a year ago I never even thought about this. That's something I can correct; thanks for pointing it out!

Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

Thanks, Jaikiran. This is good input. And you are a quite active person on the forums; your opinion counts a lot with me. 

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.


I'm not sure either but I think your point about SO matches my guess as to what it's about. The SO style is Q&A while the 'debugging conversation' type thing is more forums.



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.

-Jaikiran

_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


--
Brian Stansberry
Manager, Senior Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

James Perkins
In reply to this post by Jaikiran Pai-2
First of all thank you very much Jaikiran for the in depth comments and opinions.

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:16 PM Jaikiran Pai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there. Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

I definitely agree with this and find myself doing this in the comments sometimes which is definitely discouraged. 

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.


Okay I think this makes sense and is a good argument for using Google Groups as essentially the replacement for the forums. Stack Overflow is used by some it seems so we can just continue using it the way it is now. Maybe with the announcement we just have a mention to use the wildfly tag.

Also the only reason I used both forums and Q&A was more because on the sunset announcement it had them listed separately :) 
 



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.

Yeah I haven't seen much either. 


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Yeah. It's allowing the community to contribute which seems like the biggest issue. I'm not sure how much they would want to or not, but I suppose we could always figure that out when it comes up.
 

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.


That's a good idea. I will do it there as well which makes sense. For some reason the ML was the place that came to mind :)
 

-Jaikiran



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JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

James Perkins
In reply to this post by Darran Lofthouse


On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 1:02 AM Darran Lofthouse <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't think we really need to separate wiki from articles, when we moved to the jboss.org infrastructure there was no real wiki solution so the closest you had was articles which some are created once similar to a blog but others were created to try and keep up to date so I think +1 for a wiki to hold the immediately updatable content.

One issue with stackoverflow is everything must be in the format of a question with answers in the format of an answer, added to that when you ask a question you get more questions second guessing why you are asking the question rather than providing an answer!  It seems if we exclusively use stackoverflow we don't have a suitable place for general discussion unless you force them to be real time in Zulip or allow more general discussion on the dev list.  You mention moving developer discussion to google groups, why not allow the same for user discussion?

I think this makes sense to use Google Groups as well.
 

I think it would be nice in general if we could find ways to encourage more general discussion in the community spaces so it is not just a place to visit with a question.
+1 

Presently blogs published to wildfly.org don't have an option for comments or ongoing discussion, having a user space could allow for a discussion to be started for a blog to allow ongoing collaboration.

Regards,
Darran Lofthouse.


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:27 PM James Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Another option could be better as without knowing the structure of how wildfly.org is a bit of ask for the community to write an article/blog post.

Any other options or suggestions on any of these points are welcome.


Not required but I would also like to open for discussion moving the wildfly-dev mailing list to Google Groups. What are others opinions on this? It seems to get fairly low traffic as of now.



--
James R. Perkins
JBoss by Red Hat
_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


--
James R. Perkins
JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

Tomaž Cerar-2
In reply to this post by Jaikiran Pai-2
Hey Jaikiran,

I agree in whole what you said.
Stackoverflow is not replacement for forums as they are now.
There is set of discussions / questions that fit perfectly to the SO paradigm but definitely not all of them.

So maybe having both, SO questions and google group mailing list? That could work.
As for wiki pages, why now utilize github wiki pages?

Whatever end decision is, keep in mind that it doesn't really matter what stack / software / platform that is chosen,
it is important that it is active. 
As having almost no participation from dev team and veteran community users will surely kill it no mater where it is.

--
tomaz

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 5:16 AM Jaikiran Pai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there. Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.

-Jaikiran

_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

James Perkins


On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 1:06 PM Tomaž Cerar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Jaikiran,

I agree in whole what you said.
Stackoverflow is not replacement for forums as they are now.
There is set of discussions / questions that fit perfectly to the SO paradigm but definitely not all of them.

It does seem we need to create a Google group. Seems to be the best place as you can post directly or via email.
 

So maybe having both, SO questions and google group mailing list? That could work.
As for wiki pages, why now utilize github wiki pages?

That is the plan for the wiki's if we need them.
 

Whatever end decision is, keep in mind that it doesn't really matter what stack / software / platform that is chosen,
it is important that it is active. 
As having almost no participation from dev team and veteran community users will surely kill it no mater where it is.

--
tomaz

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 5:16 AM Jaikiran Pai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there. Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.

-Jaikiran

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James R. Perkins
JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: WildFly Community Space Replacement

Brian Stansberry


On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 7:43 PM James Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 1:06 PM Tomaž Cerar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Jaikiran,

I agree in whole what you said.
Stackoverflow is not replacement for forums as they are now.
There is set of discussions / questions that fit perfectly to the SO paradigm but definitely not all of them.

It does seem we need to create a Google group. Seems to be the best place as you can post directly or via email.

+1
 

So maybe having both, SO questions and google group mailing list? That could work.
As for wiki pages, why now utilize github wiki pages?

That is the plan for the wiki's if we need them.
 

Whatever end decision is, keep in mind that it doesn't really matter what stack / software / platform that is chosen,
it is important that it is active. 
As having almost no participation from dev team and veteran community users will surely kill it no mater where it is.

--
tomaz

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 5:16 AM Jaikiran Pai <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello James,

On 01/02/20 1:56 am, James Perkins wrote:
Hello All,
We are in a position where we need to change the community space for WildFly, currently located at https://developer.jboss.org/en/wildfly/. On 2020-03-1 this community space will become read-only.

We've got 3 areas we need to move.
  1. Forums/Q&A
  2. Wiki/FAQ
  3. Articles

1. Forums/Q&A
My preference here is we would use Stack Overflow, specifically the wildfly tag. It seems the forums is really more Q&A than anything.

If we want to keep the forum and Q&A separate we could use Stack Overflow for the Q&A and Google Groups for the forum. Though I don't really see much difference between the forum and Q&A.

The JBoss AS (and now) WildFly forums have over the years seen a steady decline in the number of posts and the quality of posts. Unfortunately, even release announcements which used to happen in the forums previously are no longer made there. Participation in terms of answers or helping out with issues has reduced too (as compared to like maybe a decade ago). The new forum software (Jive), IMO has contributed a lot towards this - its editor was and still is a major hassle, plus the rules around posting (from what I remember new users weren't allowed to post more than a few posts within a few minutes of each other and had to wait hours to post next). Plus, repeated complaints from regular users about this, never ended up seeing any results. Regular contributors who used to answer or help out on issues are no longer around.

Having said that, from what I see, WildFly forum as compared to other forums still sees good amount of traffic in terms of questions. I think JBoss AS and WildFly forums are probably the most active ones right (they used to compete with RichFaces and to some extent HornetQ forum in terms of traffic, but ever since they were sunset, the application server forums are the more frequented ones).

I don't have any concerns on moving away from the current location of these forums. However, I personally don't like them being moved to StackOverflow. I have tried to be a user at StackOverflow a few times, during the past decade. But every time, I have disliked it. If you look at the JBoss AS/WildFly forums, you will notice that a lot of these discussions/questions span multiple posts where the original poster and the volunteer helpers go back and forth asking details and trying to narrow down what the issue is - more like a debug session spread across multiple posts. This kind of interactive discussion hasn't ever been encouraged at StackOverflow and neither does the software nor the people involved seem to encourage it there. That has always made me stay away from StackOverflow.

Google groups on the other hand I think are a better place. I don't use its web interface, but given that it integrates right into your email client, I have found it gives the same level of interactive nature that you typically want in discussions. Quarkus project has been using google groups for its user + dev discussions and so far I have really liked it. So I think maybe hosting the forums as a google group mailing list might be a good idea. In fact, I have a feeling that it might bring in more participation, both from the users as well as volunteers contributors (but that's just a guess).

By the way, I don't fully understand the difference between Q&A and forums. To me they sound the same and unless I'm missing something. Asking users to post in 2 different places (one for Q&A and one for forums) might not be a good idea.



2. Wiki/FAQ
For this we could use GitHub Wiki here. For details see https://help.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/about-wikis.

I don't think anyone uses Wiki/FAQ anymore these days (I miss the days where I used to wait for wikis from Scott Stark. The classloading one is still one of my favourite ones). Neither have I seen too many new wikis/FAQ being created nor have I seen them being referred to in the forums (unlike the good old Adrian days ;)). So I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not to have a new place for them.


3. Articles
I don't know how often articles get created, but it doesn't look like often. My suggestion would be that we just use wildfly.org for this. These seem to be akin to blog posts. 

Articles these days have mainly been from the WildFly dev team before/after a release about new features (which is a good thing). Again I haven't liked the software that hosts these articles (again the editor and other hassles around it), but at least there have been some new articles every now and then. I think wilfly.org for articles sounds fine. Maybe it should optionally have the ability to aggregate any good community users' articles every now and then.

Having said all this, I think it's best to post this announcement and ask for suggestions in the WildFly forums itself, since those are the users we should be looking inputs from.

-Jaikiran

_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


--
James R. Perkins
JBoss by Red Hat
_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


--
Brian Stansberry
Manager, Senior Principal Software Engineer
Red Hat

_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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