manual way to do logging?

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manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke
I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.

Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
Something like:

String getMessage(long id, Object... params);


Can't seem to find anything at the moment.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

David Lloyd-2
On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>
> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
> Something like:
>
> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);

No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
so...).  You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke


On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:

> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>
>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>> Something like:
>>
>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>
> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>

Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.

BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
adapt to my project.  These engineering hours could have been better
spent elsewhere.

--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
On 6/6/12 1:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>
>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>> Something like:
>>>
>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>
>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>
>
> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>
> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
> adapt to my project.  These engineering hours could have been better
> spent elsewhere.

You don't have to use it. You just need a message format that meets
TAG-2. Everything the framework does, is meets the TAG-3 requirements
(discussed ad nauseam years ago).

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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
On 6/6/12 1:37 PM, Jason T. Greene wrote:

> On 6/6/12 1:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>>> Something like:
>>>>
>>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>>
>>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>>
>>
>> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
>> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>>
>> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
>> adapt to my project.  These engineering hours could have been better
>> spent elsewhere.
>
> You don't have to use it. You just need a message format that meets
> TAG-2. Everything the framework does, is meets the TAG-3 requirements
> (discussed ad nauseam years ago).
>

I forgot to mention one of the things in the TAG-3 requirements was to
meet TAG-2 and still be an abstraction over multiple backends. So the
reason it's causing you trouble is you want to put an abstraction over
an abstraction, which is a mismatch of goals.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
On 06/06/2012 01:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>
>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>> Something like:
>>>
>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>
>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>
>
> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>
> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
> adapt to my project. These engineering hours could have been better
> spent elsewhere.

Yes, creating your own abstraction when there's a perfectly good one
ready and easy to use is indeed over-engineering. :)

All jboss-logging is, is an API (a pretty damn good one if I may say so)
on a Logger class plus automatic backend detection.  That's about as
close to the ideal of a minimal, most efficient/effective solution to a
problem as is humanly achievable if you ask me.  Shading in the
dozen-odd logging classes from a tried and true framework (which btw we
are all basically required to use to accommodate i18n anyway) seems a
lot less over-engineered than creating Yet Another Redundant Fucking
Logging Abstraction which will *no doubt* make all the same mistakes
that all the others have made.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

James Perkins
In reply to this post by jtgreene


On 06/06/2012 11:37 AM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
On 6/6/12 1:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.

Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
Something like:

String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.

Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.

BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
adapt to my project.  These engineering hours could have been better
spent elsewhere.
You don't have to use it. You just need a message format that meets 
TAG-2. Everything the framework does, is meets the TAG-3 requirements 
(discussed ad nauseam years ago).

This was all done before I started so I could be wrong, but I think JBoss Logging is supposed to be used. https://issues.jboss.org/browse/ANDIAMO-2
-- 
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JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
On 6/6/12 1:56 PM, James Perkins wrote:

>
>
> On 06/06/2012 11:37 AM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
>> On 6/6/12 1:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>>>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>>>> Something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>>>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>>>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>>>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>>>
>>> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
>>> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>>>
>>> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
>>> adapt to my project.  These engineering hours could have been better
>>> spent elsewhere.
>> You don't have to use it. You just need a message format that meets
>> TAG-2. Everything the framework does, is meets the TAG-3 requirements
>> (discussed ad nauseam years ago).
>>
> This was all done before I started so I could be wrong, but I think
> JBoss Logging is supposed to be used.
> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/ANDIAMO-2

It the preferred option, but we anticipated the impossibility of making
everyone happy, so the official decision was that you could use
something different provided you met the same requirements. Weld for
example went this route (although we did share tools code IIRC) because
of licensing requirements. We are changing the license to ASL which
should solve that particular problem.

One of the challenges in doing i8ln is making it scale, and keeping the
english description in source. so thats why jboss logging precompiles
(no resource bundle lookup on every invocation). So while you roll your
own, you have to solve these same issues.

Anything in the AS codebase though MUST use jboss logging (no reason not
to).


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JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
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Re: manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke
In reply to this post by David Lloyd-2


On 6/6/12 2:41 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:

> On 06/06/2012 01:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do not
>>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>>> Something like:
>>>>
>>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>>
>>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>>
>>
>> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
>> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>>
>> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
>> adapt to my project. These engineering hours could have been better
>> spent elsewhere.
>
> Yes, creating your own abstraction when there's a perfectly good one
> ready and easy to use is indeed over-engineering. :)
>

"easy to use" is certainly your perception, not mine.

And my logger is not a full-blown abstraction, just a small wrapper over
existing logging frameworks.  But...since you couldn't provide simple
methods like:

String getMessage(long messageId, Object... params);
info(long messageId, Object... params)

I'm stuck writing Yet Another Redundant Fucking Logging Abstraction for
i18n because I absolutely refuse to be dependent on any specific Yet
Another Fucking Logging Abstraction.

--
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JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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Re: manual way to do logging?

David Lloyd-2
On 06/06/2012 02:17 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 2:41 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> On 06/06/2012 01:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/6/12 2:11 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>> On 06/06/2012 12:35 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>> I do not want to use the JBoss Logging annotation framework as I do
>>>>> not
>>>>> want to have a hard dependency on JBoss Logging for my project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a manual API that I can use instead to build a message?
>>>>> Something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> String getMessage(long id, Object... params);
>>>>
>>>> No, there isn't (and if there were, it'd be part of JBoss Logging,
>>>> so...). You can however use the maven-shade-plugin to slurp the JBoss
>>>> Logging classes into your project (even under another package name).
>>>> It's a pretty small project and we're working to make it smaller.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Eh, I guess I could just use reflection techniques to create my own
>>> abstraction and stuff the logging interfaces in a separate jar.
>>>
>>> BTW, this is ridiculously over-engineered and at least for me, harder to
>>> adapt to my project. These engineering hours could have been better
>>> spent elsewhere.
>>
>> Yes, creating your own abstraction when there's a perfectly good one
>> ready and easy to use is indeed over-engineering. :)
>>
>
> "easy to use" is certainly your perception, not mine.
>
> And my logger is not a full-blown abstraction, just a small wrapper over
> existing logging frameworks. But...since you couldn't provide simple
> methods like:
>
> String getMessage(long messageId, Object... params);
> info(long messageId, Object... params)
>
> I'm stuck writing Yet Another Redundant Fucking Logging Abstraction for
> i18n because I absolutely refuse to be dependent on any specific Yet
> Another Fucking Logging Abstraction.

Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team why
they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
descriptive name.  And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
provides them with the English translation to work from.  Doesn't sound
like a good use of time to me.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke


On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team

I'll just forward those emails onto you.

> why
> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
> provides them with the English translation to work from.

You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files?  (At
least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)

> Doesn't sound
> like a good use of time to me.
>

I agree.  Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now
because you guys had to over-engineer this.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke


On 6/6/12 3:27 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team
>
> I'll just forward those emails onto you.
>
>> why
>> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
>> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
>> provides them with the English translation to work from.
>
> You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files?  (At
> least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)
>
>> Doesn't sound
>> like a good use of time to me.
>>
>
> I agree.  Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now
> because you guys had to over-engineer this.
>

Looks like you can do this?

@MessageBundle(projectCode = "Resteasy")
public interface ValidMessages {

    final ValidMessages MESSAGES = Messages.getBundle(ValidMessages.class);

    @Message("...")
    String myMessage(...);

}


Will that be enough to ease the translation team?







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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
On 6/6/12 2:27 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team
>
> I'll just forward those emails onto you.
>
>> why
>> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
>> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
>> provides them with the English translation to work from.
>
> You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files?  (At
> least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)
>
>> Doesn't sound
>> like a good use of time to me.
>>
>
> I agree.  Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now
> because you guys had to over-engineer this.

Right its not like you had any opportunity during the TAG discussions to
disagree with any particular discussion. Or that you got to see people
saying they disliked the first API which looked similar to what you just
pasted here because of duplication of messages, like of type safety,
lack of message in the java source, performance problems etc. Oh wait
you did!

--
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JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
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Re: manual way to do logging?

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
On 06/06/2012 02:27 PM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team
>
> I'll just forward those emails onto you.
>
>> why
>> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
>> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
>> provides them with the English translation to work from.
>
> You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files? (At
> least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)

It is.  Our tooling generates the property file skeletons.  Then the
translation team translates them, and then the tooling compiles them
down to classes.

>> Doesn't sound
>> like a good use of time to me.
>>
>
> I agree. Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now because
> you guys had to over-engineer this.

We have these things called "requirements" which we met exactly afaict.
  This is the exact opposite of "over-engineering", which is, by
definition, adding in un-required features.  The jboss-logging API is
minimal; the i18n solution exactly implements the requirements.

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Re: manual way to do logging?

James Perkins
In reply to this post by jtgreene


On 06/06/2012 12:06 PM, Jason T. Greene wrote:

> On 6/6/12 1:56 PM, James Perkins wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 06/06/2012 11:37 AM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
>>> On 6/6/12 1:32 PM, Bill Burke wrote: You don't have to use it. You
>>> just need a message format that meets
>>> TAG-2. Everything the framework does, is meets the TAG-3 requirements
>>> (discussed ad nauseam years ago).
>>>
>> This was all done before I started so I could be wrong, but I think
>> JBoss Logging is supposed to be used.
>> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/ANDIAMO-2
>
> It the preferred option, but we anticipated the impossibility of
> making everyone happy, so the official decision was that you could use
> something different provided you met the same requirements. Weld for
> example went this route (although we did share tools code IIRC)
> because of licensing requirements. We are changing the license to ASL
> which should solve that particular problem.
>
> One of the challenges in doing i8ln is making it scale, and keeping
> the english description in source. so thats why jboss logging
> precompiles (no resource bundle lookup on every invocation). So while
> you roll your own, you have to solve these same issues.
>
> Anything in the AS codebase though MUST use jboss logging (no reason
> not to).
>
>
Thanks for the clarification Jason. This is good information to know.

--
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JBoss by Red Hat

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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
In reply to this post by David Lloyd-2
On 6/6/12 3:33 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:

> On 06/06/2012 02:27 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team
>>
>> I'll just forward those emails onto you.
>>
>>> why
>>> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead of a
>>> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
>>> provides them with the English translation to work from.
>>
>> You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files? (At
>> least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)
>
> It is.  Our tooling generates the property file skeletons.  Then the
> translation team translates them, and then the tooling compiles them
> down to classes.
>
>>> Doesn't sound
>>> like a good use of time to me.
>>>
>>
>> I agree. Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now because
>> you guys had to over-engineer this.
>
> We have these things called "requirements" which we met exactly afaict.
>    This is the exact opposite of "over-engineering", which is, by
> definition, adding in un-required features.  The jboss-logging API is
> minimal; the i18n solution exactly implements the requirements.
>

Ironically adding an abstraction layer over an abstraction layer doesnt
seem to have a requirement associated with it.....

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JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
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Re: manual way to do logging?

Andrig Miller
In reply to this post by jtgreene


----- Original Message -----

> From: "Jason T. Greene" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Bill Burke" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "JBoss AS7 Development" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 2:17:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?
>
> On 6/6/12 2:27 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 6/6/12 3:19 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> >> Up to you, but you get to be the one to tell the translation team
> >
> > I'll just forward those emails onto you.
> >
> >> why
> >> they have to key all their messages off of an integer ID instead
> >> of a
> >> descriptive name. And you also get to reinvent the tooling which
> >> provides them with the English translation to work from.
> >
> > You mean all this crap isn't built on top of simple property files?
> >  (At
> > least thats what I saw in the jboss-logging-processor testsuite)
> >
> >> Doesn't sound
> >> like a good use of time to me.
> >>
> >
> > I agree.  Which is why this is at the very bottom of my queue now
> > because you guys had to over-engineer this.
>
> Right its not like you had any opportunity during the TAG discussions
> to
> disagree with any particular discussion. Or that you got to see
> people
> saying they disliked the first API which looked similar to what you
> just
> pasted here because of duplication of messages, like of type safety,
> lack of message in the java source, performance problems etc. Oh wait
> you did!
>
> --
> Jason T. Greene
> JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
> _______________________________________________
> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>

I'm not sure we have to have these discussions over and over and over again.  From my perspective, performance being my primary concern, JBoss logging has been awesome, and it meets all the companies requirements.  I haven't been able to put an exact percentage on it yet, but the use of JBoss logging has improved throughput on all the workloads I have tested, that is for sure.

If we continue to pollute the code base with different logging frameworks, a lot of those gains could start to disappear.  Besides the fact, that we are about to ship a product in multiple languages for the first time, and we have to continue to finish the work we started.

Is is all that difficult to adopt JBoss logging?  This all seems counter productive.

Andy
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Re: manual way to do logging?

jtgreene
Administrator
On 6/6/12 3:43 PM, Andrig Miller wrote:

> I'm not sure we have to have these discussions over and over and over
> again.  From my perspective, performance being my primary concern,
> JBoss logging has been awesome, and it meets all the companies
> requirements.  I haven't been able to put an exact percentage on it
> yet, but the use of JBoss logging has improved throughput on all the
> workloads I have tested, that is for sure.
>
> If we continue to pollute the code base with different logging
> frameworks, a lot of those gains could start to disappear.  Besides
> the fact, that we are about to ship a product in multiple languages
> for the first time, and we have to continue to finish the work we
> started.
>
> Is is all that difficult to adopt JBoss logging?  This all seems
> counter productive.

Right I think we need to know why it needs to be abstracted. What is
missing from jboss logging that requires RESTEasy to have an
abstraction? Once we know the answer to that question, we can either add
whatever the missing thing is, or recommend how to go about building
something custom with similar perf characteristics (if the advice is
even wanted).

--
Jason T. Greene
JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
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Re: manual way to do logging?

Andrig Miller


----- Original Message -----

> From: "Jason T. Greene" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Andrig Miller" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "JBoss AS7 Development" <[hidden email]>, "Bill Burke" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:02:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?
>
> On 6/6/12 3:43 PM, Andrig Miller wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure we have to have these discussions over and over and
> > over
> > again.  From my perspective, performance being my primary concern,
> > JBoss logging has been awesome, and it meets all the companies
> > requirements.  I haven't been able to put an exact percentage on it
> > yet, but the use of JBoss logging has improved throughput on all
> > the
> > workloads I have tested, that is for sure.
> >
> > If we continue to pollute the code base with different logging
> > frameworks, a lot of those gains could start to disappear.  Besides
> > the fact, that we are about to ship a product in multiple languages
> > for the first time, and we have to continue to finish the work we
> > started.
> >
> > Is is all that difficult to adopt JBoss logging?  This all seems
> > counter productive.
>
> Right I think we need to know why it needs to be abstracted. What is
> missing from jboss logging that requires RESTEasy to have an
> abstraction? Once we know the answer to that question, we can either
> add
> whatever the missing thing is, or recommend how to go about building
> something custom with similar perf characteristics (if the advice is
> even wanted).
>
> --
> Jason T. Greene
> JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>

+1,000
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Re: manual way to do logging?

Bill Burke
In reply to this post by jtgreene


On 6/6/12 5:02 PM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
> On 6/6/12 3:43 PM, Andrig Miller wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure we have to have these discussions over and over and over
>> again. From my perspective, performance being my primary concern,
>> JBoss logging has been awesome, and it meets all the companies
>> requirements. I haven't been able to put an exact percentage on it
>> yet, but the use of JBoss logging has improved throughput on all the
>> workloads I have tested, that is for sure.
>>

The performance gains you are seeing are from not doing stupid things
which are pretty easy to avoid.  i.e. not doing string concatenations
when your logging level isn't triggered.

>> If we continue to pollute the code base with different logging
>> frameworks, a lot of those gains could start to disappear. Besides
>> the fact, that we are about to ship a product in multiple languages
>> for the first time, and we have to continue to finish the work we
>> started.
>>
>> Is is all that difficult to adopt JBoss logging? This all seems
>> counter productive.
>
> Right I think we need to know why it needs to be abstracted. What is
> missing from jboss logging that requires RESTEasy to have an
> abstraction? Once we know the answer to that question, we can either add
> whatever the missing thing is, or recommend how to go about building
> something custom with similar perf characteristics (if the advice is
> even wanted).
>

The reasons are simple:  I don't want a *hard* dependency on yet another
logging abstraction within my codebase.  I really don't want to write a
logging abstraction, I just want to have a tiny level of indirection so
that I'm not dependent on any one of them.  You don't think I have any
right to be a little frustrated that I can't do this tiny level of
indirection and that I have to use a full-blown code generation
framework just to do logging?  You don't think it is even a little bit
ridiculous that you are requiring code generation just to do logging?
Come on guys...

You asked what's missing from JBoss Logging, I'll reiterate more completely:

void info(String messageID, Object... params);
void trace(String messageID, Object... params);
void error(String messageID, Object... params);

String getMessage(String messageID, Object... params);
MessageFormat getMessageFormat(String messageID);

Simple as that.  You can whine about the performance implications all
you want but, IMO, if you do a log-level check before you lookup the
message, it shouldn't be an issue.

BTW, nobody answered my previous question, @MessageBundle is fine to
use?  Our translation teams know how to handle them?  Considering you
think JBoss Logging is already perfect, I'm guessing I'll have to revert
to using reflection calls on @MessageBundle if I want to keep my
delegation logger.

P.S. BTW Jason, I did comment multiple times on TAG-3 years ago.  I'd be
happy to forward the emails.  What I said then was:  I don't want to be
dependent on yet another logging abstraction and questioned why we were
spending so many engineering hours on one.



--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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