smaller footprints

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smaller footprints

Bill Burke
On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
understand why you are rolling your own app server"  response:

"It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
configuration helps us get a lot more per node."

I'm not complaining :), just something to think about.  It might be
really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
instead of the exploded style we currently have.
--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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Re: smaller footprints

Tomaž Cerar-2
Bill,

that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone, domain,...) you can grab it at: http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip

For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.

Current idea on code split up is here https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase

--
tomaz



On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
understand why you are rolling your own app server"  response:

"It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
configuration helps us get a lot more per node."

I'm not complaining :), just something to think about.  It might be
really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
instead of the exploded style we currently have.
--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


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Re: smaller footprints

Brian Stansberry
This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.

On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:

> Bill,
>
> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
> domain,...) you can grab it at:
> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>
> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>
> Current idea on code split up is here
> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>
> --
> tomaz
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>     using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>     understand why you are rolling your own app server"  response:
>
>     "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>     equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>     together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>     I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>     but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>     cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>     configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>
>     I'm not complaining :), just something to think about.  It might be
>     really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>     custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>     instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>     --
>     Bill Burke
>     JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>     http://bill.burkecentral.com
>     _______________________________________________
>     wildfly-dev mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wildfly-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>


--
Brian Stansberry
Senior Principal Software Engineer
JBoss by Red Hat
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Re: smaller footprints

Bill Burke
Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just Servlet,
JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out how to
remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.

BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules.  So it
would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as a way to
figure out which modules aren't being used ;).


On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:

> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>
> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>
>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>>
>> Current idea on code split up is here
>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>
>> --
>> tomaz
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server"  response:
>>
>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>
>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about.  It might be
>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>      --
>>      Bill Burke
>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>      http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>
>

--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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wildfly-dev mailing list
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Re: smaller footprints

Brian Stansberry
When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
linked:

"Web

Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet container, and
will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with something as
lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
functionality."

On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:

> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just Servlet,
> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out how to
> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>
> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules.  So it
> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as a way to
> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>
>
> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>
>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>
>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>>>
>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>
>>> --
>>> tomaz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server"  response:
>>>
>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>
>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think about.  It might be
>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>       --
>>>       Bill Burke
>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>       http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>       [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>


--
Brian Stansberry
Senior Principal Software Engineer
JBoss by Red Hat
_______________________________________________
wildfly-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
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Re: smaller footprints

Misty Stanley-Jones
I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but could optionally be run post-install as well.

On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
> linked:
>
> "Web
>
> Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
> subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet container, and
> will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
> appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
> functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with something as
> lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
> functionality."
>
> On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just Servlet,
>> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out how to
>> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>
>> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as a way to
>> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
>>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
>>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
>>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>
>>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
>>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
>>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
>>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>
>>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
>>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>>>>
>>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> tomaz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>>
>>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>
>>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It might be
>>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>      --
>>>>      Bill Burke
>>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>      http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brian Stansberry
> Senior Principal Software Engineer
> JBoss by Red Hat
> _______________________________________________
> wildfly-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105 / Mobile: +61 429 595 932  (TZ: GMT+10)
IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)


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Re: smaller footprints

Stuart Douglas
No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every possible combination that someone might select.

Stuart


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but could optionally be run post-install as well.

On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
> linked:
>
> "Web
>
> Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
> subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet container, and
> will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
> appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
> functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with something as
> lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
> functionality."
>
> On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just Servlet,
>> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out how to
>> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>
>> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as a way to
>> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
>>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
>>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
>>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>
>>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
>>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
>>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
>>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>
>>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
>>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>>>>
>>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> tomaz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>>
>>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>
>>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It might be
>>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>      --
>>>>      Bill Burke
>>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>      http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brian Stansberry
> Senior Principal Software Engineer
> JBoss by Red Hat
> _______________________________________________
> wildfly-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
Direct: <a href="tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105" value="+61735148105">+ 61 7 3514 8105 / Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932" value="+61429595932">+61 429 595 932  (TZ: GMT+10)
IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)


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Re: smaller footprints

Carlo de Wolf
The thing needs distribution tooling to setup different configurations.

As for support, we'll support combinations that are actual products.

Carlo

On 02/24/2014 03:10 AM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every possible combination that someone might select.

Stuart


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but could optionally be run post-install as well.

On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
> linked:
>
> "Web
>
> Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
> subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet container, and
> will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
> appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
> functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with something as
> lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
> functionality."
>
> On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just Servlet,
>> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out how to
>> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>
>> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as a way to
>> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the way there
>>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI, JAX-RS, JPA.
>>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the easy "plus
>>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>
>>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in that is
>>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own wildfly.
>>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI, standalone,
>>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>
>>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have decided that we
>>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other distributions.
>>>>
>>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> tomaz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own app server"
>>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them "I don't
>>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>>
>>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can run the
>>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but throwing this
>>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its packaged).
>>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on my linux VM)
>>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out in the
>>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running with this
>>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>
>>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It might be
>>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it easier to create
>>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for the app server
>>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>      --
>>>>      Bill Burke
>>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>      http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brian Stansberry
> Senior Principal Software Engineer
> JBoss by Red Hat
> _______________________________________________
> wildfly-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
Direct: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105" value="+61735148105">+ 61 7 3514 8105 / Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932" value="+61429595932">+61 429 595 932  (TZ: GMT+10)
IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)


_______________________________________________
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Re: smaller footprints

Bill Burke
In reply to this post by Stuart Douglas
A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
+ whatever?

On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:

> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
> possible combination that someone might select.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>     GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>     for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>     automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>     things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>     subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>     could optionally be run post-install as well.
>
>     On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     wrote:
>
>      > When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>      > linked:
>      >
>      > "Web
>      >
>      > Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>      > subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>     container, and
>      > will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>      > appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>      > functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>     something as
>      > lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>      > functionality."
>      >
>      > On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>      >> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>     Servlet,
>      >> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>     how to
>      >> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>      >>
>      >> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>      >> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>     a way to
>      >> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>      >>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>     way there
>      >>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>     JAX-RS, JPA.
>      >>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>     easy "plus
>      >>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>      >>>
>      >>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>      >>>> Bill,
>      >>>>
>      >>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>      >>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>     that is
>      >>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>     wildfly.
>      >>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>     standalone,
>      >>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>      >>>>
>     http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>      >>>>
>      >>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>     decided that we
>      >>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>     distributions.
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>      >>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>      >>>>
>      >>>> --
>      >>>> tomaz
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>     app server"
>      >>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>     "I don't
>      >>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>     run the
>      >>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>     throwing this
>      >>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>     packaged).
>      >>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>     my linux VM)
>      >>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>     in the
>      >>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>     with this
>      >>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>      >>>>
>      >>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>     might be
>      >>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>     easier to create
>      >>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>     the app server
>      >>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>      >>>>      --
>      >>>>      Bill Burke
>      >>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>      >>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>      >>>>      _______________________________________________
>      >>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>      >>>> [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     <mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>      >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>> _______________________________________________
>      >>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>      >>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>      >>>>
>      >>>
>      >>>
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>      > --
>      > Brian Stansberry
>      > Senior Principal Software Engineer
>      > JBoss by Red Hat
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > wildfly-dev mailing list
>      > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>
>     Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>     Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>     Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105 <tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105> / Mobile:
>     +61 429 595 932 <tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>  (TZ: GMT+10)
>     IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     wildfly-dev mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wildfly-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>

--
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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Re: smaller footprints

Brian Stansberry
I think we need to get a clearer sense of what "support" means.

First, it's WF so we those of us at Red Hat don't "support" it in the
way we support EAP.

In community there are going to be certain combinations that are heavily
tested, and if you have issues with those, almost certainly you'll get
more help with getting questions answered and bugs fixed.

Beyond that, we should work to ensure our dependency metadata is
correct, so whatever tooling people rely on for rolling their own is
using correct data. Any bugs in that metadata we should of course fix.

Beyond that, if people use unusual combinations and find unusual
problems they should expect a lower probability of getting help.

On 2/24/14, 8:00 AM, Bill Burke wrote:

> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
> + whatever?
>
> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>      I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>      GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>      for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>      automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>      things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>      subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>      could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>
>>      On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>      <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>      wrote:
>>
>>       > When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>       > linked:
>>       >
>>       > "Web
>>       >
>>       > Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>       > subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>      container, and
>>       > will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>       > appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>       > functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>      something as
>>       > lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>       > functionality."
>>       >
>>       > On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>       >> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>      Servlet,
>>       >> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>      how to
>>       >> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>       >>
>>       >> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>       >> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>      a way to
>>       >> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>       >>
>>       >>
>>       >> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>       >>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>      way there
>>       >>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>      JAX-RS, JPA.
>>       >>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>      easy "plus
>>       >>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>       >>>
>>       >>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>       >>>> Bill,
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>       >>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>      that is
>>       >>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>      wildfly.
>>       >>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>      standalone,
>>       >>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>       >>>>
>>      http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>      decided that we
>>       >>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>      distributions.
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>       >>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> --
>>       >>>> tomaz
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>      app server"
>>       >>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>      "I don't
>>       >>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>      run the
>>       >>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>      throwing this
>>       >>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>      packaged).
>>       >>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>      my linux VM)
>>       >>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>      in the
>>       >>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>      with this
>>       >>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>      might be
>>       >>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>      easier to create
>>       >>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>      the app server
>>       >>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>       >>>>      --
>>       >>>>      Bill Burke
>>       >>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>       >>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>       >>>>      _______________________________________________
>>       >>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>> [hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>       >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> _______________________________________________
>>       >>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > --
>>       > Brian Stansberry
>>       > Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>       > JBoss by Red Hat
>>       > _______________________________________________
>>       > wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>      Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>      Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>      Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105 <tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105> / Mobile:
>>      +61 429 595 932 <tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>  (TZ: GMT+10)
>>      IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>


--
Brian Stansberry
Senior Principal Software Engineer
JBoss by Red Hat
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Re: smaller footprints

Benjamin Browning
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
For TorqueBox users we absolutely need a much slimmer server. When we
were based on AS 7.2, we took the approach of building AS 7.2 from
source and removing all the bits unnecessary for Ruby apps to cut our
distribution size down to a bit less than 40MB from about 160MB.

As we port to WildFly, we're taking this idea much further and will
write TorqueBox itself against a new API that will let us seamlessly run
TorqueBox inside WildFly or outside of WildFly, bringing components in
ourselves directly.

Basically, we want to give those users that just want to run simple Ruby
web apps a way to do that via a small RubyGem that embeds Undertow
directly. This same app will then be able to run inside WildFly and
utilize Undertow (and other components) of the app server instead of the
embedded versions we bring when they run outside of WildFly.

We'll keep our eye on the efforts of WildFly core distribution and the
separated modules, but for now we need something embeddable with a very
small memory and disk footprint for the majority of our users.

Ben

On 02/24/2014 09:00 AM, Bill Burke wrote:

> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
> + whatever?
>
> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>      I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>      GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>      for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>      automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>      things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>      subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>      could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>
>>      On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>      <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>      wrote:
>>
>>       > When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>       > linked:
>>       >
>>       > "Web
>>       >
>>       > Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>       > subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>      container, and
>>       > will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>       > appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>       > functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>      something as
>>       > lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>       > functionality."
>>       >
>>       > On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>       >> Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>      Servlet,
>>       >> JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>      how to
>>       >> remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>       >>
>>       >> BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>       >> would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>      a way to
>>       >> figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>       >>
>>       >>
>>       >> On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>       >>> This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>      way there
>>       >>> yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>      JAX-RS, JPA.
>>       >>> That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>      easy "plus
>>       >>> some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>       >>>
>>       >>> On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>       >>>> Bill,
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>       >>>> We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>      that is
>>       >>>> WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>      wildfly.
>>       >>>> It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>      standalone,
>>       >>>> domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>       >>>>
>>      http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>      decided that we
>>       >>>> will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>      distributions.
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> Current idea on code split up is here
>>       >>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> --
>>       >>>> tomaz
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke <[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>      app server"
>>       >>>>      using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>      "I don't
>>       >>>>      understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>      run the
>>       >>>>      equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>      throwing this
>>       >>>>      together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>      packaged).
>>       >>>>      I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>      my linux VM)
>>       >>>>      but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>      in the
>>       >>>>      cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>      with this
>>       >>>>      configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>      I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>      might be
>>       >>>>      really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>      easier to create
>>       >>>>      custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>      the app server
>>       >>>>      instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>       >>>>      --
>>       >>>>      Bill Burke
>>       >>>>      JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>       >>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>       >>>>      _______________________________________________
>>       >>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>> [hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>       >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>> _______________________________________________
>>       >>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>
>>       >
>>       >
>>       > --
>>       > Brian Stansberry
>>       > Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>       > JBoss by Red Hat
>>       > _______________________________________________
>>       > wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>      Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>      Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>      Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105 <tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105> / Mobile:
>>      +61 429 595 932 <tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>  (TZ: GMT+10)
>>      IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>      [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>
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Re: smaller footprints

Stuart Douglas
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:

https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin

So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.

It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
dependencies).

The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).

Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
'everything and the kitchen sink' build.

It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
copy and modify our ant scripts).

This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
yet and any comments are welcome.

Stuart


Bill Burke wrote:

> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
> + whatever?
>
> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>
>>      I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>      GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>      for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>      automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>      things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>      subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>      could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>
>>      On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>      <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>      wrote:
>>
>>       >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>       >  linked:
>>       >
>>       >  "Web
>>       >
>>       >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>       >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>      container, and
>>       >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>       >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>       >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>      something as
>>       >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>       >  functionality."
>>       >
>>       >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>       >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>      Servlet,
>>       >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>      how to
>>       >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>       >>
>>       >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>       >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>      a way to
>>       >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>       >>
>>       >>
>>       >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>       >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>      way there
>>       >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>      JAX-RS, JPA.
>>       >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>      easy "plus
>>       >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>       >>>
>>       >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>       >>>>  Bill,
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>       >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>      that is
>>       >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>      wildfly.
>>       >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>      standalone,
>>       >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>       >>>>
>>      http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>      decided that we
>>       >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>      distributions.
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>       >>>>  https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  --
>>       >>>>  tomaz
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke<[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>  wrote:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>      app server"
>>       >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>      "I don't
>>       >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>      run the
>>       >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>      throwing this
>>       >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>      packaged).
>>       >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>      my linux VM)
>>       >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>      in the
>>       >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>      with this
>>       >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>      might be
>>       >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>      easier to create
>>       >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>      the app server
>>       >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>       >>>>       --
>>       >>>>       Bill Burke
>>       >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>       >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>       >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>       >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>>  [hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]
>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>       >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>       >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >>>>  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>       >>>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>>
>>       >>
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >  --
>>       >  Brian Stansberry
>>       >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>       >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>       >  _______________________________________________
>>       >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>       >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>       >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>      Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>      Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>      Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>      +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>      IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>      [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>
>

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Re: smaller footprints

Bill Burke
Great work Stuart!  I'm really happy somebody is taking initiative on
this because I really think it will help a lot with Wildfly adoption.
Is it ready to use?  I'm willing to try it out RIGHT NOW.

I've expressed some of these thoughts months ago when I introduced the
JBoss Modules artifact features, but here was my vision:

* maven repos would become to Wildfly as /lib /usr/local/lib directory
structures are to unix.
* The JBoss Module artifact feature would become the preferred way to
deploy Wildfly/JBoss.  This would make it really easy to support
multiple versions as well as different distro's of JBoss/Wildfly on the
same machine and save huge amounts of disk space.  If we could get a JVM
that could share JAR instances between processes to save on RAM, the win
would be even bigger!  Think of the cloud implications!
* JBoss Module definitions could eventually be defined in one large XML
file.  We would have maven/ant plugins to help build this large XML file.
* This single JBoss Module XML file could be bundled within a
JBoss/Wildfly "executable jar".
* This "executable jar" could be overlayed with external JBoss Module
XML files or directory structures.
* Finally, you could create this "executable jar" for any Java project.




On 3/4/2014 1:37 AM, Stuart Douglas wrote:

> I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
> on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
> existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
> repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
> work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:
>
> https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin
>
> So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
> distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.
>
> It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
> functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
> a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
> dependencies).
>
> The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
> produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
> any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
> jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
> the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
> download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
> plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
> into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).
>
> Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
> whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
> process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
> that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
> 'everything and the kitchen sink' build.
>
> It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
> use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
> copy and modify our ant scripts).
>
> This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
> yet and any comments are welcome.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> Bill Burke wrote:
>> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
>> + whatever?
>>
>> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>      I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>>      GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>>      for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>>      automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>>      things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>>      subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>>      could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>>
>>>      On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>>      <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>      wrote:
>>>
>>>       >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki
>>> page Tomaz
>>>       >  linked:
>>>       >
>>>       >  "Web
>>>       >
>>>       >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including
>>> a small
>>>       >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>>      container, and
>>>       >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web
>>> based
>>>       >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>>       >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>>      something as
>>>       >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced
>>> management
>>>       >  functionality."
>>>       >
>>>       >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>       >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>>      Servlet,
>>>       >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to
>>> figure out
>>>      how to
>>>       >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>>       >>
>>>       >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss
>>> Modules. So it
>>>       >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use
>>> it as
>>>      a way to
>>>       >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>>       >>
>>>       >>
>>>       >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>>       >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>>      way there
>>>       >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>>      JAX-RS, JPA.
>>>       >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>>      easy "plus
>>>       >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>       >>>
>>>       >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>       >>>>  Bill,
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>       >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core
>>> distribution in
>>>      that is
>>>       >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>>      wildfly.
>>>       >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>>      standalone,
>>>       >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>       >>>>
>>>
>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>>      decided that we
>>>       >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>>      distributions.
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>>       >>>>
>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  --
>>>       >>>>  tomaz
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill
>>> Burke<[hidden email]
>>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>>      app server"
>>>       >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of
>>> them
>>>      "I don't
>>>       >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server"
>>> response:
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum
>>> I can
>>>      run the
>>>       >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>>      throwing this
>>>       >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when
>>> its
>>>      packaged).
>>>       >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum
>>> (~100mb on
>>>      my linux VM)
>>>       >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When
>>> rolling out
>>>      in the
>>>       >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>>      with this
>>>       >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think
>>> about. It
>>>      might be
>>>       >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>>      easier to create
>>>       >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>>      the app server
>>>       >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>       >>>>       --
>>>       >>>>       Bill Burke
>>>       >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>       >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>       >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>       >>>>  [hidden email]
>>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>      <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>      <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>       >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>       >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>       >>>>
>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>       >>>>
>>>       >>>
>>>       >>>
>>>       >>
>>>       >
>>>       >
>>>       >  --
>>>       >  Brian Stansberry
>>>       >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>>       >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>>       >  _______________________________________________
>>>       >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>       >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>>      Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>>      Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>>      Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>>      +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>>      IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>>
>>>
>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>      wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>      [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>      https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>
>

--
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JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com
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Re: smaller footprints

James Perkins
In reply to this post by Stuart Douglas
Since the logging subsystem is in the core distro, I'm wondering if the  
default DUP's to add logging dependencies and search for logging
configuration files in deployments should be disabled. There are
attributes to disable these now which are should remain enabled in
WildFly, but it seems the opposite might be preferable in a core-distro.
I've not really thought about how to do that or looked over Stuarts
branch with great detail, but just kind of throwing it out there to get
opinions on it.

On 03/03/2014 10:37 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:

> I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
> on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
> existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
> repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
> work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:
>
> https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin
>
> So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
> distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.
>
> It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
> functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
> a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
> dependencies).
>
> The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
> produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
> any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
> jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
> the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
> download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
> plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
> into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).
>
> Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
> whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
> process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
> that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
> 'everything and the kitchen sink' build.
>
> It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
> use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
> copy and modify our ant scripts).
>
> This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
> yet and any comments are welcome.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> Bill Burke wrote:
>> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
>> + whatever?
>>
>> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>       I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>>       GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>>       for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>>       automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>>       things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>>       subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>>       could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>>
>>>       On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>>       <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>       wrote:
>>>
>>>        >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>>        >  linked:
>>>        >
>>>        >  "Web
>>>        >
>>>        >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>>        >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>>       container, and
>>>        >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>>        >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>>        >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>>       something as
>>>        >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>>        >  functionality."
>>>        >
>>>        >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>        >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>>       Servlet,
>>>        >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>>       how to
>>>        >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>>        >>
>>>        >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>>        >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>>       a way to
>>>        >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>>        >>
>>>        >>
>>>        >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>>        >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>>       way there
>>>        >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>>       JAX-RS, JPA.
>>>        >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>>       easy "plus
>>>        >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>        >>>
>>>        >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>        >>>>  Bill,
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>        >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>>       that is
>>>        >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>>       wildfly.
>>>        >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>>       standalone,
>>>        >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>        >>>>
>>>       http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>>       decided that we
>>>        >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>>       distributions.
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>>        >>>>  https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  --
>>>        >>>>  tomaz
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke<[hidden email]
>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>        >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>  wrote:
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>>       app server"
>>>        >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>>       "I don't
>>>        >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>>       run the
>>>        >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>>       throwing this
>>>        >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>>       packaged).
>>>        >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>>       my linux VM)
>>>        >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>>       in the
>>>        >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>>       with this
>>>        >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>>       might be
>>>        >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>>       easier to create
>>>        >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>>       the app server
>>>        >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>        >>>>       --
>>>        >>>>       Bill Burke
>>>        >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>        >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>        >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>        >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>        >>>>  [hidden email]
>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>        >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>        >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>        >>>>  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>        >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>        >>>>
>>>        >>>
>>>        >>>
>>>        >>
>>>        >
>>>        >
>>>        >  --
>>>        >  Brian Stansberry
>>>        >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>>        >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>>        >  _______________________________________________
>>>        >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>        >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>        >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>>       Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>>       Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>>       Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>>       +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>>       IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>>
>>>
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>       [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>       https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>

--
James R. Perkins
Red Hat JBoss Middleware

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Re: smaller footprints

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
You might want to look at the work described in
https://issues.jboss.org/browse/MODULES-146 which essentially would let
you keep your modules directory completely remote on a server, with
local caching, if you wanted to.

On 03/04/2014 08:35 AM, Bill Burke wrote:

> Great work Stuart!  I'm really happy somebody is taking initiative on
> this because I really think it will help a lot with Wildfly adoption.
> Is it ready to use?  I'm willing to try it out RIGHT NOW.
>
> I've expressed some of these thoughts months ago when I introduced the
> JBoss Modules artifact features, but here was my vision:
>
> * maven repos would become to Wildfly as /lib /usr/local/lib directory
> structures are to unix.
> * The JBoss Module artifact feature would become the preferred way to
> deploy Wildfly/JBoss.  This would make it really easy to support
> multiple versions as well as different distro's of JBoss/Wildfly on the
> same machine and save huge amounts of disk space.  If we could get a JVM
> that could share JAR instances between processes to save on RAM, the win
> would be even bigger!  Think of the cloud implications!
> * JBoss Module definitions could eventually be defined in one large XML
> file.  We would have maven/ant plugins to help build this large XML file.
> * This single JBoss Module XML file could be bundled within a
> JBoss/Wildfly "executable jar".
> * This "executable jar" could be overlayed with external JBoss Module
> XML files or directory structures.
> * Finally, you could create this "executable jar" for any Java project.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/4/2014 1:37 AM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>> I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
>> on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
>> existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
>> repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
>> work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:
>>
>> https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin
>>
>> So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
>> distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.
>>
>> It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
>> functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
>> a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
>> dependencies).
>>
>> The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
>> produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
>> any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
>> jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
>> the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
>> download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
>> plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
>> into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).
>>
>> Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
>> whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
>> process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
>> that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
>> 'everything and the kitchen sink' build.
>>
>> It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
>> use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
>> copy and modify our ant scripts).
>>
>> This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
>> yet and any comments are welcome.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> Bill Burke wrote:
>>> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
>>> + whatever?
>>>
>>> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>>>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>>>       GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>>>       for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>>>       automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>>>       things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>>>       subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>>>       could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>>>
>>>>       On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>>>       <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>       wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki
>>>> page Tomaz
>>>>        >  linked:
>>>>        >
>>>>        >  "Web
>>>>        >
>>>>        >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including
>>>> a small
>>>>        >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>>>       container, and
>>>>        >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web
>>>> based
>>>>        >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>>>        >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>>>       something as
>>>>        >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced
>>>> management
>>>>        >  functionality."
>>>>        >
>>>>        >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>        >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>>>       Servlet,
>>>>        >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to
>>>> figure out
>>>>       how to
>>>>        >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>>>        >>
>>>>        >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss
>>>> Modules. So it
>>>>        >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use
>>>> it as
>>>>       a way to
>>>>        >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>>>        >>
>>>>        >>
>>>>        >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>>>        >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>>>       way there
>>>>        >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>>>       JAX-RS, JPA.
>>>>        >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>>>       easy "plus
>>>>        >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>>        >>>
>>>>        >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>>        >>>>  Bill,
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>>        >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core
>>>> distribution in
>>>>       that is
>>>>        >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>>>       wildfly.
>>>>        >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>>>       standalone,
>>>>        >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>>>       decided that we
>>>>        >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>>>       distributions.
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>>>        >>>>
>>>> https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  --
>>>>        >>>>  tomaz
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill
>>>> Burke<[hidden email]
>>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>        >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>>>       app server"
>>>>        >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of
>>>> them
>>>>       "I don't
>>>>        >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server"
>>>> response:
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum
>>>> I can
>>>>       run the
>>>>        >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>>>       throwing this
>>>>        >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when
>>>> its
>>>>       packaged).
>>>>        >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum
>>>> (~100mb on
>>>>       my linux VM)
>>>>        >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When
>>>> rolling out
>>>>       in the
>>>>        >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>>>       with this
>>>>        >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think
>>>> about. It
>>>>       might be
>>>>        >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>>>       easier to create
>>>>        >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>>>       the app server
>>>>        >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>        >>>>       --
>>>>        >>>>       Bill Burke
>>>>        >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>        >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>        >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>        >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>        >>>>  [hidden email]
>>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>       <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>        >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>        >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>        >>>>
>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>        >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>        >>>>
>>>>        >>>
>>>>        >>>
>>>>        >>
>>>>        >
>>>>        >
>>>>        >  --
>>>>        >  Brian Stansberry
>>>>        >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>>>        >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>>>        >  _______________________________________________
>>>>        >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>        >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>        >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>       Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>>>       Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>>>       Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>>>       +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>>>       IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>       [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>       https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>
>


--
- DML
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Re: smaller footprints

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by James Perkins
As long as we don't break deployments which use the container
dependencies, anything is fine.

On 03/04/2014 10:28 AM, James R. Perkins wrote:

> Since the logging subsystem is in the core distro, I'm wondering if the
> default DUP's to add logging dependencies and search for logging
> configuration files in deployments should be disabled. There are
> attributes to disable these now which are should remain enabled in
> WildFly, but it seems the opposite might be preferable in a core-distro.
> I've not really thought about how to do that or looked over Stuarts
> branch with great detail, but just kind of throwing it out there to get
> opinions on it.
>
> On 03/03/2014 10:37 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>> I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
>> on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
>> existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
>> repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
>> work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:
>>
>> https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin
>>
>> So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
>> distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.
>>
>> It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
>> functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
>> a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
>> dependencies).
>>
>> The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
>> produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
>> any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
>> jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
>> the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
>> download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
>> plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
>> into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).
>>
>> Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
>> whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
>> process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
>> that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
>> 'everything and the kitchen sink' build.
>>
>> It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
>> use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
>> copy and modify our ant scripts).
>>
>> This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
>> yet and any comments are welcome.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>> Bill Burke wrote:
>>> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
>>> + whatever?
>>>
>>> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>>>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>>>        GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>>>        for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>>>        automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>>>        things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>>>        subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>>>        could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>>>
>>>>        On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>>>        <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>        wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>>>         >  linked:
>>>>         >
>>>>         >  "Web
>>>>         >
>>>>         >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>>>         >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>>>        container, and
>>>>         >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>>>         >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>>>         >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>>>        something as
>>>>         >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>>>         >  functionality."
>>>>         >
>>>>         >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>         >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>>>        Servlet,
>>>>         >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>>>        how to
>>>>         >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>>>         >>
>>>>         >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>>>         >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>>>        a way to
>>>>         >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>>>         >>
>>>>         >>
>>>>         >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>>>         >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>>>        way there
>>>>         >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>>>        JAX-RS, JPA.
>>>>         >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>>>        easy "plus
>>>>         >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>>         >>>
>>>>         >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>>         >>>>  Bill,
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>>         >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>>>        that is
>>>>         >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>>>        wildfly.
>>>>         >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>>>        standalone,
>>>>         >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>        http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>>>        decided that we
>>>>         >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>>>        distributions.
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>>>         >>>>  https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  --
>>>>         >>>>  tomaz
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke<[hidden email]
>>>>        <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>         >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>  wrote:
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>>>        app server"
>>>>         >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>>>        "I don't
>>>>         >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>>>        run the
>>>>         >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>>>        throwing this
>>>>         >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>>>        packaged).
>>>>         >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>>>        my linux VM)
>>>>         >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>>>        in the
>>>>         >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>>>        with this
>>>>         >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>>>        might be
>>>>         >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>>>        easier to create
>>>>         >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>>>        the app server
>>>>         >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>         >>>>       --
>>>>         >>>>       Bill Burke
>>>>         >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>         >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>         >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>         >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>         >>>>  [hidden email]
>>>>        <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>        <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>        <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>         >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>         >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>         >>>>  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>         >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>         >>>>
>>>>         >>>
>>>>         >>>
>>>>         >>
>>>>         >
>>>>         >
>>>>         >  --
>>>>         >  Brian Stansberry
>>>>         >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>>>         >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>>>         >  _______________________________________________
>>>>         >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>         >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>         >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>        Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>>>        Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>>>        Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>>>        +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>>>        IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        _______________________________________________
>>>>        wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>        [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>        https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>
>


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Re: smaller footprints

Bill Burke
In reply to this post by David Lloyd-2


On 3/4/2014 11:39 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> You might want to look at the work described in
> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/MODULES-146 which essentially would let
> you keep your modules directory completely remote on a server, with
> local caching, if you wanted to.
>

For distributing jars, I like the artifact approach better as you don't
have to maintain two types of repos.  You can use a maven repo for both
building apps and running Wildfly.  I can't remember exactly, but the
full size of all module.xml files in a Wildfly distro was 200-800k after
you strip out all the comments.

--
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JBoss, a division of Red Hat
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Re: smaller footprints

Brian Stansberry
In reply to this post by David Lloyd-2
It's an interesting question how a particular child server build will be
able to override a standard config snippet from a depended upon server
build. I know Stuart was thinking about that a bit. It's been at least
28 hours so I'm sure he has it sorted. ;)

On 3/4/14, 10:46 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:

> As long as we don't break deployments which use the container
> dependencies, anything is fine.
>
> On 03/04/2014 10:28 AM, James R. Perkins wrote:
>> Since the logging subsystem is in the core distro, I'm wondering if the
>> default DUP's to add logging dependencies and search for logging
>> configuration files in deployments should be disabled. There are
>> attributes to disable these now which are should remain enabled in
>> WildFly, but it seems the opposite might be preferable in a core-distro.
>> I've not really thought about how to do that or looked over Stuarts
>> branch with great detail, but just kind of throwing it out there to get
>> opinions on it.
>>
>> On 03/03/2014 10:37 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>> I have made a start on this split, and I think the solution I am working
>>> on will meet all the use cases, including users that want to cut down an
>>> existing server, and users that want to re-use the jars in their maven
>>> repo using Bill's changes to JBoss Modules. It still needs a bit more
>>> work and a lot of cleanup, however it seems to work:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/stuartwdouglas/wildfly/compare/wildfly-build-plugin
>>>
>>> So basically the core of it is a maven plugin that builds a Wildfly
>>> distribution, either from scratch or use other distributions as a base.
>>>
>>> It also supports building servers that use the new <artifact>
>>> functionality in jboss modules, and cutting down an existing server into
>>> a smaller server with only the specified modules (and their transitive
>>> dependencies).
>>>
>>> The way this will work in practice is that each Wildfly sub project will
>>> produce two different server artifacts, one of which is a server without
>>> any jars using artifact references, and a more traditional version with
>>> jars packaged in the module directory. Downstream projects will consume
>>> the smaller version without all the jars, so when a version changes the
>>> download should be less than 5mb rather than larger than 100mb (the
>>> plugin has the ability to turn a server that uses artifact references
>>> into a server that contains the jars in the modules dir).
>>>
>>> Basically the upshot is that it should be basically possible to build
>>> whatever configuration of server you want once this is part of our build
>>> process, and we should also be publishing lightweight server artifacts
>>> that use the jars in the maven repo as well as our traditional
>>> 'everything and the kitchen sink' build.
>>>
>>> It is anticipated that 3rd party projects build on Wildfly would also
>>> use this plugin (I think at the moment the standard approach has been to
>>> copy and modify our ant scripts).
>>>
>>> This is still very much a work in progress, so nothing is set in stone
>>> yet and any comments are welcome.
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill Burke wrote:
>>>> A lot of users want that ability, would you rather have them roll Netty
>>>> + whatever?
>>>>
>>>> On 2/23/2014 9:10 PM, Stuart Douglas wrote:
>>>>> No, because that means we essentially have to support and test every
>>>>> possible combination that someone might select.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Misty Stanley-Jones<[hidden email]
>>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         I know you guys aren’t there yet, but can we think about wrapping a
>>>>>         GUI around this, so that the developer only needs to tick the boxes
>>>>>         for what he does/doesn’t want, with dependencies sorted out
>>>>>         automatically? Maybe some default profiles that select a group of
>>>>>         things, but the ability to go in and add or remove individual
>>>>>         subsystems as needed? Maybe this could be part of the installer but
>>>>>         could optionally be run post-install as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>         On Feb 22, 2014, at 2:01 AM, Brian Stansberry
>>>>>         <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>>         wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>          >  When I said "Web" I meant the thing described on that wiki page Tomaz
>>>>>          >  linked:
>>>>>          >
>>>>>          >  "Web
>>>>>          >
>>>>>          >  Undertow subsystem, and all related dependencies, including a small
>>>>>          >  subset of EE and JNDI. This is basically just a Servlet
>>>>>         container, and
>>>>>          >  will provide a platform for people that want to create web based
>>>>>          >  appliances or applications, and don't need all the additional
>>>>>          >  functionality that Wildfly provides. We should end up with
>>>>>         something as
>>>>>          >  lightweight as Tomcat or Jetty, but with all our advanced management
>>>>>          >  functionality."
>>>>>          >
>>>>>          >  On 2/21/14, 9:40 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>          >>  Its also "Web" minus some stuff.  For my project I want just
>>>>>         Servlet,
>>>>>          >>  JAX-RS, JPA, and datasources.   Its very very hard to figure out
>>>>>         how to
>>>>>          >>  remove a subsystem and all its associated modules.
>>>>>          >>
>>>>>          >>  BTW, I think my maven artifact thing got into JBoss Modules. So it
>>>>>          >>  would be possible to load jars on demand, or at least use it as
>>>>>         a way to
>>>>>          >>  figure out which modules aren't being used ;).
>>>>>          >>
>>>>>          >>
>>>>>          >>  On 2/21/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
>>>>>          >>>  This will move things in the right direction, but not all the
>>>>>         way there
>>>>>          >>>  yet. Note the set of capabilities Bill mention: web, CDI,
>>>>>         JAX-RS, JPA.
>>>>>          >>>  That sounds like our "Web" variant, plus some stuff. It's the
>>>>>         easy "plus
>>>>>          >>>  some stuff" part that needs sorting at some point.
>>>>>          >>>
>>>>>          >>>  On 2/21/14, 9:08 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
>>>>>          >>>>  Bill,
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  that is exactly idea we have in mind of 9.
>>>>>          >>>>  We already started with producing WildFly core distribution in
>>>>>         that is
>>>>>          >>>>  WildFly with no subsystems, upon which you can build you own
>>>>>         wildfly.
>>>>>          >>>>  It is only 15mb and contains whole mgmt capabilites (CLI,
>>>>>         standalone,
>>>>>          >>>>  domain,...) you can grab it at:
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>         http://download.jboss.org/wildfly/8.0.0.Final/core/wildfly-core-8.0.0.Final.zip
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  For 9 we have plans to move things bit further and have
>>>>>         decided that we
>>>>>          >>>>  will also do split codebase for core, ee, web, .. and other
>>>>>         distributions.
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  Current idea on code split up is here
>>>>>          >>>>  https://community.jboss.org/wiki/SplittingUpTheWildflyCodeBase
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  --
>>>>>          >>>>  tomaz
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bill Burke<[hidden email]
>>>>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>          >>>>  <mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>>  wrote:
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>       On Resteasy list I have a few people "rolling their own
>>>>>         app server"
>>>>>          >>>>       using Netty, Weld, Resteasy and JPA.  I asked one of them
>>>>>         "I don't
>>>>>          >>>>       understand why you are rolling your own app server" response:
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>       "It's actually a lot more lightweight.  The minimum I can
>>>>>         run the
>>>>>          >>>>       equivalent on AS7 on is ~ 180 mb in binaries, but
>>>>>         throwing this
>>>>>          >>>>       together is about 32 mb (and compresses further when its
>>>>>         packaged).
>>>>>          >>>>       I'm able to start the JVM on the bare minimum (~100mb on
>>>>>         my linux VM)
>>>>>          >>>>       but AS7 with all I need is about 756mb.  When rolling out
>>>>>         in the
>>>>>          >>>>       cloud, where all of my REST APIs are stateless, running
>>>>>         with this
>>>>>          >>>>       configuration helps us get a lot more per node."
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>       I'm not complaining :), just something to think about. It
>>>>>         might be
>>>>>          >>>>       really valuable to focus a bit in Wildfly 9 to make it
>>>>>         easier to create
>>>>>          >>>>       custom profiles or even different packaging options for
>>>>>         the app server
>>>>>          >>>>       instead of the exploded style we currently have.
>>>>>          >>>>       --
>>>>>          >>>>       Bill Burke
>>>>>          >>>>       JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>>          >>>>  http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>>          >>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>>          >>>>       wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>>          >>>>  [hidden email]
>>>>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>         <mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>>>          >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>          >>>>  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>>          >>>>  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>          >>>>  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>>          >>>>
>>>>>          >>>
>>>>>          >>>
>>>>>          >>
>>>>>          >
>>>>>          >
>>>>>          >  --
>>>>>          >  Brian Stansberry
>>>>>          >  Senior Principal Software Engineer
>>>>>          >  JBoss by Red Hat
>>>>>          >  _______________________________________________
>>>>>          >  wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>>          >  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>          >  https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>         Misty Stanley-Jones, RHCE
>>>>>         Manager, Content Services (Middleware)
>>>>>         Direct: + 61 7 3514 8105<tel:%2B%2061%207%203514%208105>  / Mobile:
>>>>>         +61 429 595 932<tel:%2B61%20429%20595%20932>   (TZ: GMT+10)
>>>>>         IRC: misty (Freenode / RH)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>         wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>>         [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>         https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
>>>>>
>>
>
>


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JBoss by Red Hat
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Re: smaller footprints

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
On 03/04/2014 11:05 AM, Bill Burke wrote:

>
>
> On 3/4/2014 11:39 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> You might want to look at the work described in
>> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/MODULES-146 which essentially would let
>> you keep your modules directory completely remote on a server, with
>> local caching, if you wanted to.
>>
>
> For distributing jars, I like the artifact approach better as you don't
> have to maintain two types of repos.  You can use a maven repo for both
> building apps and running Wildfly.  I can't remember exactly, but the
> full size of all module.xml files in a Wildfly distro was 200-800k after
> you strip out all the comments.

It is possible that you misunderstood me.  It's not necessarily
one-or-the-other; you could have the remote repository hold the module
descriptors which are downloaded on demand.  That will save you even
more space and you don't even have to strip out comments.

Other thoughts however will come on another branch.
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Re: smaller footprints

David Lloyd-2
In reply to this post by Bill Burke
On 03/04/2014 08:35 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
> Great work Stuart!  I'm really happy somebody is taking initiative on
> this because I really think it will help a lot with Wildfly adoption.
> Is it ready to use?  I'm willing to try it out RIGHT NOW.
>
> I've expressed some of these thoughts months ago when I introduced the
> JBoss Modules artifact features, but here was my vision:
>
> * maven repos would become to Wildfly as /lib /usr/local/lib directory
> structures are to unix.

I'm not sure how tightly you're gripping to this metaphor, but it can
not be exactly this because the maven dependencies do not semantically
have the right dependency information to function 100% correctly at run
time, which is the point of JBoss Modules and its dependency
infrastructure in the first place.

> * The JBoss Module artifact feature would become the preferred way to
> deploy Wildfly/JBoss.  This would make it really easy to support
> multiple versions as well as different distro's of JBoss/Wildfly on the
> same machine and save huge amounts of disk space.  If we could get a JVM
> that could share JAR instances between processes to save on RAM, the win
> would be even bigger!  Think of the cloud implications!

Deploy, maybe in certain cases, but I don't think that using Maven repos
is going to be preferred in the data center case or even the cloud case.
  In both cases, in any non-trivially sized environment, the systems are
generally going to be either built up by packages long before deployment
time, simply replicated in whole off an image, or built up by high-level
tooling in such a way that it doesn't really pay to "buy in" to the
Maven repository format, which would be more useful perhaps during
development.  In many cases, the public Internet isn't even accessible
and a local image is necessary.  I think the usefulness of Maven is
heavily, heavily overstated here.

> * JBoss Module definitions could eventually be defined in one large XML
> file.  We would have maven/ant plugins to help build this large XML file.

This would be a step backwards, especially if we ever want to support
third-party add-ins in a uniform manner.

> * This single JBoss Module XML file could be bundled within a
> JBoss/Wildfly "executable jar".
> * This "executable jar" could be overlayed with external JBoss Module
> XML files or directory structures.
> * Finally, you could create this "executable jar" for any Java project.

I guess you're looking at it from the perspective of "every Java
application is a monolithic thing" instead of "I have an installation
which has N applications in it", which is more what my world view is.

And I have in the past, and continue to believe that build and run time
are very distinct.  At build time, you have a giant, single universe of
artifacts which include versioned dependency information which is used
for build repeatability purposes.  At run time, you have one or more
"environments" of selected artifacts which include versionless
dependency information, that are tested together and certified, which
can be (theoretically anyway) updated, installed, and removed
individually without rebuild (only a one-time, centralized retest in the
updates case).  This is actually much closer to both the Jigsaw/MR ethos
as well as the way that UNIX-ish /lib works today, and I think is more
in line with what we want to have in the 5+ year time frame (if we
cannot manage it sooner than that).

--
- DML
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